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	<title>Comments for Sour Apples</title>
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	<link>http://www.sourapplesblog.com</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 02:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on New Addition to US Arsenal: Jesus Rifles by Wes Ellis</title>
		<link>http://www.sourapplesblog.com/2010/01/19/jesus-rifles/comment-page-1/#comment-6678</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sourapplesblog.com/?p=570#comment-6678</guid>
		<description>This makes me a little sick to my stomach. It's amazing how horribly damaging and destructive a book like the Bible can be to society and to people's perspective on life. Perhaps the author of James had this sort of thing in mind when he said "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless." True "religion" is "to look after orphans and widows in their distress," not kill people and put still more others in distress. 

Thanks for this post... I'm sorry that Christians are so stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This makes me a little sick to my stomach. It&#8217;s amazing how horribly damaging and destructive a book like the Bible can be to society and to people&#8217;s perspective on life. Perhaps the author of James had this sort of thing in mind when he said &#8220;If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.&#8221; True &#8220;religion&#8221; is &#8220;to look after orphans and widows in their distress,&#8221; not kill people and put still more others in distress. </p>
<p>Thanks for this post&#8230; I&#8217;m sorry that Christians are so stupid.</p>
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		<title>Comment on New Addition to US Arsenal: Jesus Rifles by Whitney</title>
		<link>http://www.sourapplesblog.com/2010/01/19/jesus-rifles/comment-page-1/#comment-6660</link>
		<dc:creator>Whitney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 18:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sourapplesblog.com/?p=570#comment-6660</guid>
		<description>Good luck stopping this sort of thing now. Any company can now legally buy elected officials. We can look forward to more outrageous and disgusting uses of our tax dollars in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good luck stopping this sort of thing now. Any company can now legally buy elected officials. We can look forward to more outrageous and disgusting uses of our tax dollars in the future.</p>
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		<title>Comment on New Addition to US Arsenal: Jesus Rifles by Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.sourapplesblog.com/2010/01/19/jesus-rifles/comment-page-1/#comment-6647</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 04:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sourapplesblog.com/?p=570#comment-6647</guid>
		<description>Whoa, you're right. Correction made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoa, you&#8217;re right. Correction made.</p>
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		<title>Comment on New Addition to US Arsenal: Jesus Rifles by Ryan O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.sourapplesblog.com/2010/01/19/jesus-rifles/comment-page-1/#comment-6646</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 04:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sourapplesblog.com/?p=570#comment-6646</guid>
		<description>Slight (hahaha) correction -- it's not a $660,00 contract, it's a $660 million contract.

My tax dollars are going to pay for this shit?  Even if it's only a penny of my measley tax obligation, I am outraged.  This must be stopped now.

Killing Muslims in the name of Christ?  Jesus would be rolling over in his grave (if he had one, that is).  Why doesn't he stop this shit done in his name?  Is he powerless?  Oh, nevermind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slight (hahaha) correction &#8212; it&#8217;s not a $660,00 contract, it&#8217;s a $660 million contract.</p>
<p>My tax dollars are going to pay for this shit?  Even if it&#8217;s only a penny of my measley tax obligation, I am outraged.  This must be stopped now.</p>
<p>Killing Muslims in the name of Christ?  Jesus would be rolling over in his grave (if he had one, that is).  Why doesn&#8217;t he stop this shit done in his name?  Is he powerless?  Oh, nevermind.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elliott&#8217;s Wager by Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.sourapplesblog.com/2010/01/12/elliotts-wager/comment-page-1/#comment-6621</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 08:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sourapplesblog.com/?p=553#comment-6621</guid>
		<description>Round 2, I guess?  At least we're coming to the same conclusion this time.  Anyways, I think that's a good response to the argument too.  I don't know if it's as successful as the line of thought that I was trying to push or that Elliott was trying to push though.  

Pascal originally thought of conversion through the wager argument as having two parts.  In the first part, he convinced you that there was a good reason to believe that God existed, or that Christianity was good to believe.  His argument had nothing to do with trying to show that Christianity corresponded with reality, but just that it was a good bet.  This is odd, because normally when someone convinces you that there is good reason to believe a proposition it is because someone convinces you that the proposition, in some sense, corresponds to reality or best explains some data (or something like that).  And if someone convinces you that some proposition corresponds to reality, then you really can't help but believe it.  However, since Pascal didn't try to prove that belief in God was a rational belief by showing that belief in God corresponded to reality, he had a problem: he showed that there was good reason to believe something but gave no way of showing how to actually come to believe it.  

The next step of the argument (which is really brief in the original essay) suggests that you start going to church and that through some miracle the sacraments will help you believe in God.  One reading of this is that you can, in a sense, force yourself to believe in something by associating with the right people and behaving in the right way.  That's a strong empirical claim, but I have never seen definitive proof that it's false.  

So, in an important sense, Pascal's wager is really a bet.  The person accepting the argument sees the belief as rational and then places his bet by jumping "off the deep end" and going to church and becoming immersed in Christian culture with the goal of brainwashing himself.  There's really something to bet in Pascal's wager: your life (or your sanity).  The person accepting Pascal's wager never chooses to believe in Christianity, but chooses to immerse himself in Christian culture with the goal of forcing himself to believe.  The first step in Pascal's argument isn't just to get you to pretend to believe; it's supposed to get you into church.  

The text of Pascal's wager supports that reading of the argument.  Whether you can really force yourself to believe in God by "jumping off the deep end" (and into church) in that way is an empirical issue, I guess.  So, in the end I prefer to respond to the argument at the first step instead of the second.  Pascal never shows a good reason to believe in Christianity, so there is no need to get into a discussion of whether you should try to believe in Christianity (or whether you should start going to church).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Round 2, I guess?  At least we&#8217;re coming to the same conclusion this time.  Anyways, I think that&#8217;s a good response to the argument too.  I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s as successful as the line of thought that I was trying to push or that Elliott was trying to push though.  </p>
<p>Pascal originally thought of conversion through the wager argument as having two parts.  In the first part, he convinced you that there was a good reason to believe that God existed, or that Christianity was good to believe.  His argument had nothing to do with trying to show that Christianity corresponded with reality, but just that it was a good bet.  This is odd, because normally when someone convinces you that there is good reason to believe a proposition it is because someone convinces you that the proposition, in some sense, corresponds to reality or best explains some data (or something like that).  And if someone convinces you that some proposition corresponds to reality, then you really can&#8217;t help but believe it.  However, since Pascal didn&#8217;t try to prove that belief in God was a rational belief by showing that belief in God corresponded to reality, he had a problem: he showed that there was good reason to believe something but gave no way of showing how to actually come to believe it.  </p>
<p>The next step of the argument (which is really brief in the original essay) suggests that you start going to church and that through some miracle the sacraments will help you believe in God.  One reading of this is that you can, in a sense, force yourself to believe in something by associating with the right people and behaving in the right way.  That&#8217;s a strong empirical claim, but I have never seen definitive proof that it&#8217;s false.  </p>
<p>So, in an important sense, Pascal&#8217;s wager is really a bet.  The person accepting the argument sees the belief as rational and then places his bet by jumping &#8220;off the deep end&#8221; and going to church and becoming immersed in Christian culture with the goal of brainwashing himself.  There&#8217;s really something to bet in Pascal&#8217;s wager: your life (or your sanity).  The person accepting Pascal&#8217;s wager never chooses to believe in Christianity, but chooses to immerse himself in Christian culture with the goal of forcing himself to believe.  The first step in Pascal&#8217;s argument isn&#8217;t just to get you to pretend to believe; it&#8217;s supposed to get you into church.  </p>
<p>The text of Pascal&#8217;s wager supports that reading of the argument.  Whether you can really force yourself to believe in God by &#8220;jumping off the deep end&#8221; (and into church) in that way is an empirical issue, I guess.  So, in the end I prefer to respond to the argument at the first step instead of the second.  Pascal never shows a good reason to believe in Christianity, so there is no need to get into a discussion of whether you should try to believe in Christianity (or whether you should start going to church).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Noah&#8217;s Ark is Literal, eh? by Sheldon W. Helms</title>
		<link>http://www.sourapplesblog.com/2010/01/06/noahs-ark-is-literal-eh/comment-page-1/#comment-6559</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheldon W. Helms</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sourapplesblog.com/?p=547#comment-6559</guid>
		<description>When you're dealing with "magical powers," these are unconvincing details. Christians (and others) will simply state that "God" controlled all of these things so that the animals could survive. Since there is no mention of such things in the Bible, it works in their favor.

Perhaps a better approach would be to attack the dimensions of the boat itself, as well as the materials used to make it. They could still cry "magic!" if they wanted to, but it's a bit sillier saying that the boat was a specific size but somehow still fit all the millions of animals onto it (did "God" shrink them down to pocket size?). I mean, if that's the case, when why build a large ship at all? They could have used a raft if the animals were going to be magically shrunk, or if size wasn't an issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you&#8217;re dealing with &#8220;magical powers,&#8221; these are unconvincing details. Christians (and others) will simply state that &#8220;God&#8221; controlled all of these things so that the animals could survive. Since there is no mention of such things in the Bible, it works in their favor.</p>
<p>Perhaps a better approach would be to attack the dimensions of the boat itself, as well as the materials used to make it. They could still cry &#8220;magic!&#8221; if they wanted to, but it&#8217;s a bit sillier saying that the boat was a specific size but somehow still fit all the millions of animals onto it (did &#8220;God&#8221; shrink them down to pocket size?). I mean, if that&#8217;s the case, when why build a large ship at all? They could have used a raft if the animals were going to be magically shrunk, or if size wasn&#8217;t an issue.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elliott&#8217;s Wager by Sheldon W. Helms</title>
		<link>http://www.sourapplesblog.com/2010/01/12/elliotts-wager/comment-page-1/#comment-6558</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheldon W. Helms</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 18:56:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sourapplesblog.com/?p=553#comment-6558</guid>
		<description>Actually, Chris, I think there's a much simpler reason that Pascal's Wager is unconvincing. Namely, that one cannot simply CHOOSE to believe in something. He either believes, or he does not. 

The best one can do when following Pascal's advice is to PRETEND to believe (going through the motions of ritual and admission); and if an omniscient god existed, it would see right through that farce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Chris, I think there&#8217;s a much simpler reason that Pascal&#8217;s Wager is unconvincing. Namely, that one cannot simply CHOOSE to believe in something. He either believes, or he does not. </p>
<p>The best one can do when following Pascal&#8217;s advice is to PRETEND to believe (going through the motions of ritual and admission); and if an omniscient god existed, it would see right through that farce.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elliott&#8217;s Wager by Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.sourapplesblog.com/2010/01/12/elliotts-wager/comment-page-1/#comment-6539</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 05:09:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sourapplesblog.com/?p=553#comment-6539</guid>
		<description>I think Pascal's wager is really unconvincing as an argument for belief in God.  In order for it to get off the ground, you need to assume that if God exists, God would want you to believe in God. Pascal's wager doesn't give you any way of figuring that out though. Even if you somehow knew that God existed, you still wouldn't know whether or not that was a good belief to have given the potential consequences: God might not want you to believe in God and could punish you for knowing about God. 

I think there are hidden assumptions like that in a lot of arguments for the existence of God. Take the example of the teleological argument: things are designed so there is some kind of designer. That doesn't even show that the designer is still alive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Pascal&#8217;s wager is really unconvincing as an argument for belief in God.  In order for it to get off the ground, you need to assume that if God exists, God would want you to believe in God. Pascal&#8217;s wager doesn&#8217;t give you any way of figuring that out though. Even if you somehow knew that God existed, you still wouldn&#8217;t know whether or not that was a good belief to have given the potential consequences: God might not want you to believe in God and could punish you for knowing about God. </p>
<p>I think there are hidden assumptions like that in a lot of arguments for the existence of God. Take the example of the teleological argument: things are designed so there is some kind of designer. That doesn&#8217;t even show that the designer is still alive.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elliott&#8217;s Wager by Matt Barros</title>
		<link>http://www.sourapplesblog.com/2010/01/12/elliotts-wager/comment-page-1/#comment-6538</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Barros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 05:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sourapplesblog.com/?p=553#comment-6538</guid>
		<description>IAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA CTHULUUUUUU!!!!!  I love this chart btw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA CTHULUUUUUU!!!!!  I love this chart btw.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Revelation by Wes Ellis</title>
		<link>http://www.sourapplesblog.com/2009/11/30/a-revelation/comment-page-1/#comment-6082</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sourapplesblog.com/?p=535#comment-6082</guid>
		<description>Great post. I guess football's more important to the rest of the world. What a sad world we live in. 

P.S. I think "factoid" was a fine word choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. I guess football&#8217;s more important to the rest of the world. What a sad world we live in. </p>
<p>P.S. I think &#8220;factoid&#8221; was a fine word choice.</p>
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